The Uni-bummer Strikes Again
Posted by John
Matt, I’m sorry, but I don’t want to know where the songs come from, even though I myself do know, for the most part. I’m speaking now as a fan. Please don’t tell me anymore! I know, of course, that this will only encourage you to find interesting ways around my request… because you just want to give endlessly of yourself. I wrote you a note that explains what I mean… I was going to send it to you, but now I’ve decided to put it up here. I’m going to preface it with some thoughts about art.
For me, as for you, art, and music especially (the king of the arts, let’s face it) is mystical. It’s also something that evolves. Furthermore, it evolves in the mystical space between the creator and the listener/viewer. We always want to know more and more about the context of the creation around a great work of art, but the aesthetic experience is rarely (never?) enhanced by this knowledge. That’s because the aesthetic experience is a “pre-knowledge” experience. That’s why the best art always is said to “take us by surprise.” And at the point where we are just vampire-ishly sucking up information about the artist and “where the song comes from” (something frequently mysterious even to the creator) we have actually “lost the thread” and are merely tumbling down the well of hagiography. God, there’s a lot to say. Terms to define. But here’s the note. Everyone can hate me now:
Matt—
“May I strongly advise you against circumscribing peoples interpretation of your songs? I really, really want to warn you against it. People’s own takes are going to be very powerful, especially with a song like this [‘Dreams’]. I know that you especially want to explain this one, but I think that you risk emasculating the song by revealing so much around it, no matter how pretty these genesis images are.
I know that your experience is so strong and specific, but the song is super evocative. People will experience it as strong and stronger without your explanations. It’s probably too late now, but this seems like something that could come up again and again over time…”
I await the judgement of Brent.
36 Comments
God I wish I had the powerof Brent. Guess what? I’ve got lots I want to say bout this, any surprize?
But I’m still at work, and I actually do edit myself. For now I say; thank you, both, for raising and discussing and caring about this. You guys rock. My initial reaction to Matt’s post was “woah, woah there big fella” but as John surmised, I’m also really really intrigued…
Posted by Spike
Uni-bummer. I like that. But you’re no bummer.
John, what you wrote up there is convincing. I know exactly what you mean about the hard info short-circuiting the wires of the straight-up listening experience. But I’m not sure that’s how it really works…
I feel like I put on the headphones and I’m right back there in that mystical world. That’s been my actual experience.
I read a Brian Wilson autobiography which was extremely dorky, and then I loved the music even more. Can’t you think of tons of examples like that in all forms of art?
Think of all the things you’ve read and learned about your favorite artists. Are you telling me you can’t any longer be under the spell of their work? I doubt that’s true.
Posted by Matt
I’ve had my nerves filed off and can no longer feel anything. Modern living, don’t you know?
Listen, hardly anyone has had the time to hear the songs yet. Give em a chance to hear them, then tell them what they’re about… I guess that’s mostly what I mean.
The rest is all college talk. Aesthetics 101.
Write the liner notes now and then put them up in five years.
Posted by John
Chronicles is my favorite rock bio ever. But it actually feels like a song or something… super impressionistic.
I think that No One Here Gets Out Alive, Up and Down With The Rolling Stones and the Led Zeppelin bios actually did me harm in high school! But of course the last two were written by road managers cashing in… so I don’t know if those count.
Perhaps now is the time to write liner notes for Lulu?
Posted by John
Liner notes for Lulu would be super, however I must admit I’d be a little wary of hearing the notes behind Will You Be Found…I have really no idea where that song came from, but it makes me feel like for the first 25 years of my life I was waiting to be found….so hearing that it is about some crack-whore trying to recover might taint the joy in that song for me….on the other hand…regardless of where a song (and by that I really mean the lyrics) come from, can you justify the arrangement of musical notes on an experience ...that’s something I don’t think you can quantify unless you are some mathematical genius with the power of the secrets of the universe behind you..
Posted by Kara
....I mean how do you say “because I left my dog really alone one christmas…I had to string 25 “Alones” together accompanied by this music that is so powerful it can make you drive off the road….there’s no explanation and that is the magic of music…
So…I don’t know what I’m saying except to say that Matt’s notes for Dreams didn’t change the way I experience the song, but it gives me a frame of reference for some of the lyrics in the other songs, which if you listen carefully you could get a sense of anyway…and it also gives me a sense of who Matt Wilson-the Man…is and the experiences he’s had that makes his songs what they are….
Posted by Kara
...but John has a good point….so it can go either way…
Posted by Kara
// Extreme subjectively begin now.
I like the linear notes idea.
I’ve never been big on lyrics; I’ve always been hooked by melody and composition. Knowing more about what is behind a musical composition gives me a deeper appreciation of the tune since I’m often at a total loss by lyrics as to what the impetus or message is (my mother said I didn’t start walking till I was 18 months as well).
John: “We always want to know more and more about the context of the creation around a great work of art, but the aesthetic experience is rarely (never?) enhanced by this knowledge.”
Sorry to be blunt, but I could not disagree more w/this comment. I believe the comments Matt has now about these tunes are strongly bound by the momentous occasion of their release. I like “Dreams” more now after reading the notes. I really hadn’t a clue as to their meaning before, and as such the lyrical message of the song was too ambiguous for me to wholly embrace the tune.
(cont.)
Posted by Eric
Maybe Matt could pen these linear notes now and wait five years before releasing them in his memoirs as he bares his soul before Terry Gross. However, as a selfish fan, I would love to read them now. I actually had already planned in my head to save each note and possibly print them out and put them all in w/the vinyl for future reference (no fooling).
Just my 2 yen.
Eric of Omaha
Posted by Eric
This is a really fascinating conversation—no question. A lot of what’s most interesting about it to me is that you guys are making us privy to the discussion, which is a rare opportunity in and of itself to know the people behind the music. Undoubtedly, that’s part of the very context-hungry, liner notes junkie side of things that John is leery of.
I certainly fall into the category of wanting to know everything I can about the music I most love. But despite whatever knowledge I might gain, the headphone mysticism of the music that first touched me remains mine alone, unaffected by even the artists themselves. With “Dreams,” I already had my own (inaccurate) idea of what the song is about, and it has nothing to do with the Bush Admin. Even now that I know what the song is really about, my interpretation is still more meaningful to me.
The context feeds the intellect, then, but the beauty of music is mostly visceral anyway, I’d say. So keep them liner notes comin’!
Posted by Dan Hutt
But I know where John is coming from. You did an interview way back in ‘92 with a friend of mine where you addressed this issue, and I’ve always remembered that. You mention Tolstoy’s theory in “What Is Art?” that says once you identify something as “art,” that is, aesthetically contrived to be “art,” then the experience of beauty is already over. That’s a pretty interesting angle that definitely holds some water, despite my comments above.
Sorry for the lecture here, but what an interesting question! I didn’t come to a single conclusion but I’d sure like to believe that the two sides are compatible, that the most sublime music is strong enough to satisfy our hunger for both the intellectual and the mystically beautiful. It’s early days, but Stereo Night is already doing both for me.
Posted by Dan Hutt
I also thought of printing out the liner notes to include in the album as an attachment or something…
Posted by Kara
I also thought of printing out the liner notes to include in the album as an attachment or something…
Posted by Kara
...I also think that many music videos change the way I hear a song much more than reading about what the lyrics may mean because an image of something is just much more “sticky” than words….if I see a video I almost always envision the video when I hear it again and sometimes I don’t want to envision a video…take Alone….I would never have associated a spaceman with that song, but I’m sure I’ll have that image in my head after the big debut…I don’t think it will change the song for me since I still think of the first time I saw Matt sing it at the 3/4 show and he messed it up and had to start over!
Posted by Kara
Of course you all want the liner notes. I KNEW that! I’m trying to save you from yourselves. And plus I know that the more I shackle Matt, the more he wants to fly, and that means more songs for the group.
Now, it’s up to you: more liner notes, or more songs?
I think it Kara’s remark about the aborted version of Alone is interesting, btw. I try to never worry about mistakes (impossible in actuality, of course) because I know that the more dramatic and broken the version, the more memorable it becomes. That’s why I say, If you’re going to fuck up, go BIG!
Posted by John
More songs! I love ‘em and devour ‘em, but maybe liner notes are overrated anyway and the age-old maxim is true: “Reading about music is like dancing about architecture is like talking about fucking.”
Posted by Dan Hutt
We find ourselves in quite the pickle…!
Regarding Matt’s Big Mistake…..that’s just a great reason to see a band live…you never know what you’re going to get….and it can be quite endearing…especially on a newer song, or an old song that hasn’t been played in a long time….but I don’t think you should ever worry about it but if I was onstage I surely would be mortified if I made a mistake
Posted by Kara
John, why didn’t you speak up when I had to hear the story behind “The Reception” at every TS concert in college? And that song didn’t even need splainin’!
Posted by Dr. Neau
It goes both ways. There are songs I’ve loved, then later heard the artist explain, like “I’m Your Captain” by Mark Farner of Grand Funk Railroad, and thought; “What? No it’s not, that’s not what it’s about at all”. Might’ve disappointed me a little, but did not ruin the song for me. But I can think of many more examples of learning about inspiration making the work more interesting, because it adds a new perspective, without diminishing the original interpretation.
Posted by Spike
That’s what makes Vincent’s letters to Theo so fascinating. Knowing he created ten paintings a day in a frenzy of passion, passed out from sunstroke, awoke in mid night on a hill to drag them home and shove them under his bed does not spoil or remove the mystique from Van Gogh’s paintings. Matt’s liner notes re; Dreams actually added pain for me, not because of the political thread, but the personal ache of disillusionment, a sobering angst for reluctant adults.
Weezer’s Rivers Cuomo explains that “Freak Me Out” on Make Believe was written about a spider. But if you listen to the song, anyone can tell you it’s about insecurity when meeting someone in a bar. Or is it about an inner city neighborhood?
Posted by Spike
The problem is the question; “What is the song about?” I recently heard a scientific explanation of rainbows. Two people standing side by side have light reflected off of a completely different set of millions of particles of moisture before it reaches their eyes, meaning they are seeing two completely different rainbows. A song, or a painting, is about your reaction to it, it’s affect on you.
But John is right. My initial reaction to Matt’s post was avoidance. Possibly because this music evokes such romantic, swooning flows of emotions cast against the backdrop my own moments of angst, searching and redemption. Turning a light on in the room might harsh my dreams. No worries, if his explanations are inaccurate, I’ll just correct him.
Posted by Spike
The problem is the question; “What is the song about?” I recently heard a scientific explanation of rainbows. Two people standing side by side have light reflected off of a completely different set of millions of particles of moisture before it reaches their eyes, meaning they are seeing two completely different rainbows. A song, or a painting, is about your reaction to it, it’s affect on you.
Posted by Spike
There was a comment about rainbows here, but now I can’t find it…which is good, because I hate rainbows.
Posted by Dr. Neau
The problem is the question; “What is the song about?’ I recently heard a scientific explanation of rainbows. Two people standing side by side have light reflected off of a completely different set of millions of particles of moisture before it reaches their eyes, meaning they are seeing two completely different rainbows. A song, or a painting, is about your reaction to it, it’s affect on you.
But John is right. My initial reaction to Matt’s post was avoidance. Possibly because this music evokes such romantic, swooning flows of emotions cast against the backdrop my own moments of angst, searching and redemption. Turning on a light in the room might harsh my dreams. No worries, if his explanations are inaccurate, I’ll just correct him.
Posted by Spike
Wow, Spike, you are really prepared! Your posts are like a thesis paper with references and everything…..B+
Posted by Kara
Wow, Spike you are prepared with references and everything….B+
I think my dreams are saving me…
Posted by Kara
Did you gat that? Are you listening? Don’t MAKE me tell you again!
Posted by Spike
Uni-bummer being against explanations is really ironic. Or sardonic? Either way, it’s pretty ever-lovin’ funny.
Posted by unimommer
ECHO…
Posted by Eric
...echo…
Posted by Eric
Did Spike clog the system..ha no matter…I like his phrase…“romantic swooning flows of emotion”...that’s just about perfect!
Posted by Kara
I’m thinking it might be possible that some songs will be even better if I read liner notes for them…but I don’t know if that is possible, but it could be possible…so it’s worth a shot…I mean, really, come on…we all know that all of us that post and lurk are hooked….with no way out…
Posted by Kara
....except through the Pantheon where we will lie on alabaster slabs whilst the Twilight Hours play an endless loop of “romantic swooning flows of emotion”...
Posted by Kara
Oooooh…an aesthetics debate about music on an interactive fan site.
I love this! And I think I have to agree with John (as much as my id wants to be a voyeur into the artist’s mind and boudouir). As an artist (visual artist) I have long stated that the audience/viewer has power to interpret the art without the artist’s explanation (as long as the audience/viewer has the same cultural lens with which to interpret the work. Culture in its widest definition—not just ethnic background, but that too).
Embrace that power people! Of course with that power comes serious responsibility. You need to know enough about metaphor and what elements of art or music can do to express an idea or feeling or story. I am an art teacher and those skills are what I teach. I help people be more thoughtful consumers and appreciators of art (in its myriad forms).
Posted by jane
I have often wondered why most music often has a pleasing sound, with such a predictable pattern. The lyrics may tell of something horrible but then there is a catchy refrain that gets people to dance, smile, sing along, or clap their hands…and it seems like the wrong thing to do for such a seriously sad or angry message. Why don’t more songwriters use the music to convey the FEELINGS of the lyrics? Do you get what I’m asking? I always think of that strange pop song, “All that she wants is another baby”...doot de doot dooo. Is that a lyric to bee bop around to?
Posted by jane
While going to art school I remember professors frowning upon paintings that were “illustrations”. I never quite understood the criticism. Only recently I can see a difference. You can paint a picture of someone who is angry at the Bush administration because of lies and the culmination in the loss of thousands of lives in a culture war…by painting furrowed brows on angry faces with bodies in a pose of rage, with images of Bush, Iraq, soldiers, etc. People could read the pictures like they would words depicting the feelings. That would be an illustration. OR one could create somehow something that actually brings to the viewer feelings of rage.
Posted by jane
Contemporary artists are concluding that there are limitations in the traditional media for evoking such ideas and feelings. So more are mixing media or including text, sounds, lighting, installation, video, etc. Music however though it has evolved seems to not break the same kinds of boundaries are visual art.
Maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.
I think I might be high on cold medicine.
Enjoy this post? Bookmark and share with others.